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  1. #171  
    Senior Member LogansPapa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    Then take your own advice and stay away from the conversatoin. When you join in you are asking not to be left alone.
    Point missed. Not all in the conversation are Christian. Again, more Christian arrogance showing itself.
    At Coretta Scott King's funeral in early 2006, Ethel Kennedy, the widow of Robert Kennedy, leaned over to him and whispered, "The torch is being passed to you." "A chill went up my spine," Obama told an aide. (Newsweek)
     

  2. #172  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogansPapa View Post
    Point missed. Not all in the conversation are Christian. Again, more Christian arrogance showing itself.
    Here is what you said
    Agnostics have diamond hard positions, usually centered around being left the fuck alone
    How did I miss the point when I pointed out that if agnostics want to be left alone then why put themselves in the line of fire by participating in discussions about beliefs? That seems like a paradox to me. You want to discuss things from a pulpit but have not have to answer questions. Talk about arrogance.

    BTW, have you ever reviewed the greek to understand what agnostic means? I'll give you a hint. It doesn't mean undecided.
    Last edited by FlaGator; 06-20-2008 at 03:50 PM.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
     

  3. #173  
    Senior Member InspiredHome's Avatar
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    The dilemma of Proverbs 26:4-5 comes to mind.
    Woe to those who call evil good
    and good evil,
    who put darkness for light
    and light for darkness,
    who put bitter for sweet
    and sweet for bitter.

    Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
    and clever in their own sight.

    Isaiah 5:20-21
     

  4. #174  
    Senior Member LogansPapa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    BTW, have you ever reviewed the greek to understand what agnostic means? I'll give you a hint. It doesn't mean undecided.
    When did I ever indicate it did?


    And on the other issue - why does everyoneís reference to GOD have to be Christian to have any validity? Talk about arrogance. Why is it the Jews never try to convert me. Guess how many Hindus have knocked on my front door? My neighbor recently told some JWís that he happened to be a Shintoist and the little old lady in this "Only True Christian" group told him, "Oh, thatís okay dear - we canít all be saved and chosen."

    At Coretta Scott King's funeral in early 2006, Ethel Kennedy, the widow of Robert Kennedy, leaned over to him and whispered, "The torch is being passed to you." "A chill went up my spine," Obama told an aide. (Newsweek)
     

  5. #175  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogansPapa View Post
    When did I ever indicate it did?


    And on the other issue - why does everyoneís reference to GOD have to be Christian to have any validity? Talk about arrogance. Why is it the Jews never try to convert me. Guess how many Hindus have knocked on my front door? My neighbor recently told some JWís that he happened to be a Shintoist and the little old lady in this "Only True Christian" group told him, "Oh, thatís okay dear - we canít all be saved and chosen."

    I don't see where I referenced particular concept of a deity in my post. You said agnostics want to be left alone. I replied with then they shouldn't participate in conversations. How did I in any way assume that every one here was a Christian?

    Since the majority of people on this site who are believers tend to be Christian then what do you expect? Why would be be referencing Allah or Brahma or Buddha in a religious discussion. Also the topic of this thread was 'More Hating on Christianity' not more hating on Hinduism or Buddhism.

    By the way, I simpy was curious if you knew what the word meant. No reason to be confused unless you are seeking a meaning that doesn't exist.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
     

  6. #176  
    Senior Member The Night Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    You logic is very flawed. God is with out cause or He is first cause. If something caused God then that something would be God. God is infinite and thus doesn't need a cause. The universe if finite and requires a cause. The universe had a beginning God did not.
    You believe that God always existed, but you can't possibly know whether it did or not. So, when you declare that the Universe was created by a God which has always existed, all you're really doing is declaring that one hypothesis explains another.

    That would make agnostics fence sitters and indecisive. As an agnostic what do you do at intersections? Just sit there considering all the possibilities.
    This one is easy. When I'm at an intersection, I can determine how to navigate it by observing the various elements of it... elements which I could verify scientifically if I chose to.
    Last edited by The Night Owl; 06-20-2008 at 06:06 PM.
    Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
     

  7. #177  
    Senior Member LogansPapa's Avatar
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    We'll try this again - because I'm missing something:

    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    BTW, have you ever reviewed the greek to understand what agnostic means? I'll give you a hint. It doesn't mean undecided.
    When, exactly, did I indicate as an agnostic, I was undecided? Please copy and paste showing where I indicated I was unsure. Thank you.
    At Coretta Scott King's funeral in early 2006, Ethel Kennedy, the widow of Robert Kennedy, leaned over to him and whispered, "The torch is being passed to you." "A chill went up my spine," Obama told an aide. (Newsweek)
     

  8. #178  
    Senior Member nacho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogansPapa View Post
    When did I ever indicate it did?


    And on the other issue - why does everyoneís reference to GOD have to be Christian to have any validity? Talk about arrogance. Why is it the Jews never try to convert me. Guess how many Hindus have knocked on my front door? My neighbor recently told some JWís that he happened to be a Shintoist and the little old lady in this "Only True Christian" group told him, "Oh, thatís okay dear - we canít all be saved and chosen."

    There is a Biblical imperative to evangelize. That isn't part of the behavior of some religions because it isn't a part of the teachings of their founders. These people aren't trying to torture you, they really believe they're helping put you in an eternal paradise. On the other hand, atheists set up "truth squads" and write endless streams of words trying to tear down all of religion for...what purpose? Both can be vexing, but only the latter have malice (not only malice, but it's more than evident it's present) in their attempts.
     

  9. #179  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogansPapa View Post
    We'll try this again - because I'm missing something:



    When, exactly, did I indicate as an agnostic, I was undecided? Please copy and paste showing where I indicated I was unsure. Thank you.


    First, you show me where I claimed you were an agnostic. Please copy and paste showing where I stated or implied that you were agnostic. I just asked if you knew what the word meant. Anything else was an erroneous conclusion on your part. I have to ponder your ability to logically draw realistic inferences based on the evidence at hand when you seem to feel that I am calling you an agnostic and I have never said anything that could be even remotely considered doing that. All your conclusions are now suspect.
    Last edited by FlaGator; 06-20-2008 at 11:38 PM.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
     

  10. #180  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    You believe that God always existed, but you can't possibly know whether it did or not. So, when you declare that the Universe was created by a God which has always existed, all you're really doing is declaring that one hypothesis explains another.
    Sure I can. First in nature I can look at the structure of DNA and come to the conclusion that it appears to be a created not an accidentally derived structure. Evolutionist say that it was accidentally formed but they cannot determine the state of events that could cause it's accidental formation. We are asked to accept this on faith because they are scientists and they know things. Anyways, I can look at the multitude of seemingly chance occurrences in structure of matter and come to the conclusion that the odds are very slim that all of these could have happened by random chance. For example, the ratio of the weight of a proton to an electron is so precisely balanced that a change in the ratio by even a 10,000th of a precent would cause chemical reactions to fail and nothing larger than an atom to be formed. The weight of evidence implies that that something had a hand in the creation of the universe. That it was not random. There are many other 'accidents' that layer each other and should any one of them be tuned slightly different than it is now would cause the whole house of cards to come crashing down. There exact strength of the nuclear weak and strong force, the strength of gravity, the rotational distance the earth is from the sun. The moon being the optimum distance from the earth for life to form. The list of accidents goes on and on, I have listed only a very small subset. Looking at the evidence either reality was completely random chance or reality was created for a specific purpose. I don't believe in accidents, coincidents or luck so I am come to the conclusion things isnít random. There is purpose behind creation.

    Then I have to ask myself who or what would have done that and a strong logical possibility is a force that existed outside the universe as we know it. This is a universe that is cause and effect based. I guess you would agree with that. Something that exists in this reality can't be unless it has a cause. Walk that backwards and only one of two results can happen. Either reality goes back into infinity or at some point there was an initial cause that itself had no cause. That initial cause would be God. Now if reality stretched back to infinity then you and I would not be here and this moment we are having could never have arrived because there would be an infinite number of moments between now and infinity.

    No one can prove on way or the other that God exists (and God wants it that way for now) but we can look at the evidence and come to some possible conclusions. I look at the evidence and weight it and in my scales to leans to the side of God. Apparently your scales are differently calibrated than mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    This one is easy. When I'm at an intersection, I can determine how to navigate it by observing the various elements of it... elements which I could verify scientifically if I chose to.

    OK, I have given you my reasons for the existence of God. Give me your reasons why He does not exist.
    Last edited by FlaGator; 06-20-2008 at 11:34 PM.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
     

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