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  1. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by megimoo View Post
    [SIZE="3"]"Baby killer rhetoric is a little tiring" learn to adjust to the expression for that is exactly what it is Willie.

    The expression pussy footing is appropiate to those political critters pandering to the Catholic vote and advocating baby killing .The Bishops have been loth to point them out and have pussyfooted around by not calling them Heretics
    Wrong. The church's own opinion regarding the act and consequences of abortion should be a different matter entirely and be removed from questions about actual abortion legislation and questions about the governments role of enforcing it. They dishonestly conflate the all those different portions of the abortion issue.

    A little reductio ad absurdem....
    Having sex before marriage is a mortal sin.... it can land you in hell all on its own. Souls are at stake as we have a country and culture that is going straight to hell, if that is believed. Where are the Bishops calling for laws against premarital sex? Hell, with abortion, the aborted babies get to go straight to heaven.. so really, premarital sex is a greater danger to our standing with God than abortion is, if you honestly follow the premises the church lays out for us. And there are a lot more people having premarital sex (and gasp, using birth control!) than there are having abortions. Using the pill is equivalent to abortion in the church's eyes. Why are they not telling us that any candidate who is pro-pill should be voted against?

    The church has gone beyond its role of providing spiritual guidance and has stepped full force into the political arena by telling voters who and what to vote for and by dictating to its members exactly what type of government philosophy they should hold.

    .Don't be confused Willie they are full blown hypocrits and deserved to be called to task from the rooftops, if need be, by each and every Catholic Bishop in America .:D
    Being pro-choice doesnt mean one condones abortion... it may just mean that they don't feel the government should ban it. Do you condone premarital sex, or birth control, because you don't (hopefully, you don't) support laws against it? When it comes to abortion, the church and its members have truely and unabashedly thrown reason to the wolves... such is the danger of religiously motivated morality.

    Divorce can also get you thrown from the church... they just don't do it because they wouldn't have any members left these days. The same thing could happen with abortion... eventually.
    Last edited by wilbur; 10-17-2008 at 01:21 PM.
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  2. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Prove it. Prove that a freshly conceived egg deserves human rights.
    Prove it doesn't. The point here isn't what you believe (you are an atheist, right?) or what I believe (I'm a Continuing Anglican) but what the RCC believes about its own doctrines and magisterium. The bishops had every right to point out the RCC's understanding of this matter. Bishops are supposed to instruct the faithful on matters of doctrine and they are supposed to exercise that authority in church during the normal services.

    The 24 dissenters from Catholic teachings are free to join a more congenial church or to abandon their faith at any time. That's fair. As far as ex communication goes, these people have put themselves in latae sententiae excommunication.
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  3. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Wrong. The church's own opinion regarding the act and consequences of abortion should be a different matter entirely and be removed from questions about actual abortion legislation and questions about the governments role of enforcing it. They dishonestly conflate the all those different portions of the abortion issue.

    A little reductio ad absurdem....
    Having sex before marriage is a mortal sin.... it can land you in hell all on its own. Souls are at stake as we have a country and culture that is going straight to hell, if that is believed. Where are the Bishops calling for laws against premarital sex? Hell, with abortion, the aborted babies get to go straight to heaven.. so really, premarital sex is a greater danger to our standing with God than abortion is, if you honestly follow the premises the church lays out for us. And there are a lot more people having premarital sex (and gasp, using birth control!) than there are having abortions. Using the pill is equivalent to abortion in the church's eyes. Why are they not telling us that any candidate who is pro-pill should be voted against?

    The church has gone beyond its role of providing spiritual guidance and has stepped full force into the political arena by telling voters who and what to vote for and by dictating to its members exactly what type of government philosophy they should hold.



    Being pro-choice doesnt mean one condones abortion... it may just mean that they don't feel the government should ban it. Do you condone premarital sex, or birth control, because you don't (hopefully, you don't) support laws against it? When it comes to abortion, the church and its members have truely and unabashedly thrown reason to the wolves... such is the danger of religiously motivated morality.

    Divorce can also get you thrown from the church... they just don't do it because they wouldn't have any members left these days. The same thing could happen with abortion... eventually.

    Not being a Catholic I'm not certain of all of their tenets but I believe that all sins are mortal sins that any sin causes one to fall short of the glory of God. Fortunately all sins can be forgiven except one. Any ways, abortion was a moral issue long before it became a political issue so the Church is doing nothing wrong but addressing a moral issue and telling its congregants how it feels about abortion and what the Church expects of them. As for "being pro-choice doesn’t mean one condones abortion" violates all the rules of logic. It is a position that contradicts itself. It says I'm against murder, but if people want to murder then that is their right. See how silly that sounds. You are either for or against something. Anything else is an attempt straddling the fence and have it both ways.

    Another point premarital sex and birth control don't violate the "You shall not murder" commandment. Birth control is considered a sin because of what some denominations believe to be a misinterpretation of a verse from Genesis. Pre-marital sex is ban because it cheapens a blessing that God gave man and it violates a bond that God intended to be life long bond between man and woman.

    Finally, who said that the Churches role is limited to spiritual guidance? Can you back that up with factual proof that this was the only niche that God intended for the Church? It seems that this is the role you find comfortable for the church to fill and anything else make you uneasy because if the Church was to gain more political power you feel you might lose your ability to do the things you like but know the Church is against.
    Last edited by FlaGator; 10-17-2008 at 08:07 PM.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
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  4. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Having sex before marriage is a mortal sin.... it can land you in hell all on its own. Souls are at stake as we have a country and culture that is going straight to hell, if that is believed. Where are the Bishops calling for laws against premarital sex? .
    I think you are confusing the nature of sin here with the moral obligation to "do right" in an individual's own life and circumstances.

    There are a number of things that would be classified as a grave sin among Catholics but most of them are not things subject to human legislation. Premarital sex can be reconciled both with the RCC, the partner, and the wider believing community through sincere repentance and a change in behavior. Elective abortion absent the need to save the mother is different. Catholic teaching sees this as the death of an innocent. Some Catholics generalize this out to a prohibition against war and execution but this isn't supported by the foundational bulls. Their position isn't "wrong" for individuals, it just doesn't apply to all Catholics.

    Really what all this comes down to is whether anybody can apply any non-legislative, non-judicial or non-political reasoning to any voting decision. If you believe they can't, you have totalitarianism. If you believe they can, you have the messy but more libertarian process we have now.
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  5. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    Not being a Catholic I'm not certain of all of their tenets but I believe that all sins are mortal sins that any sin causes one to fall short of the glory of God. Fortunately all sins can be forgiven except one. Any ways, abortion was a moral issue long before it became a political issue so the Church is doing nothing wrong but addressing a moral issue and telling its congregants how it feels about abortion and what the Church expects of them.
    That's fine... telling them how to vote at spiritual gun point is not... that kind of coercion is immoral.

    As for "being pro-choice doesn’t mean one condones abortion" violates all the rules of logic. It is a position that contradicts itself. It says I'm against murder, but if people want to murder then that is their right. See how silly that sounds. You are either for or against something. Anything else is an attempt straddling the fence and have it both ways.

    Another point premarital sex and birth control don't violate the "You shall not murder" commandment. Birth control is considered a sin because of what some denominations believe to be a misinterpretation of a verse from Genesis. Pre-marital sex is ban because it cheapens a blessing that God gave man and it violates a bond that God intended to be life long bond between man and woman.
    By some estimates, the pill and some other forms of legal birth control cause more conceived eggs to be aborted than actual medical abortion procedures each year. This is my point... if you believe the pill should be legal, then there is no logical way you can be consistent and believe early term abortions should be illegal, or vice versa.

    If you can claim it is OK for a Catholic to believe that the government shouldn't outlaw the pill and other forms of BC, then you can't claim that it should be impossible for them to be pro-choice. Pro-choice isnt necessarily a judgment on the morality of the procedure, but a judgment on the government's role in a philosophically treacherous issue.

    Finally, who said that the Churches role is limited to spiritual guidance? Can you back that up with factual proof that this was the only niche that God intended for the Church? It seems that this is the role you find comfortable for the church to fill and anything else make you uneasy because if the Church was to gain more political power you feel you might lose your ability to do the things you like but know the Church is against.
    After a couple thousand years of hard learned lessons, we have thankfully mostly removed its authority in the political system. However, it's trying to usurp the power back by telling its members to vote their way... or else. They've simply stepped outside the bounds of their expertise, yet pretended they are just as authoritative.... as if they are the final say of God's will in political and governmental matters, and not just theological ones.
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  6. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    That's fine... telling them how to vote at spiritual gun point is not... that kind of coercion is immoral.
    How is sharing the churches beliefs and values telling them how to vote "at spiritual gun point?" Unions do this, they give out lists of the politicians and causes they expect the rank and file to endorse. And just like the unions the congregants are able to vote their conscience regardless as to what they hear from the pulpit. If this is immoral then you are say that every organization and group that provides guidance to their members is doing something immoral by coercing their members to vote a certain way. For the record, my church doesn't tell me who it endorses. It does provide me a list of all the candidates and lists what they do and don't support. I am free to make the determination on who I vote for based on that criteria or any other that I choose to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    By some estimates, the pill and some other forms of legal birth control cause more conceived eggs to be aborted than actual medical abortion procedures each year. This is my point... if you believe the pill should be legal, then there is no logical way you can be consistent and believe early term abortions should be illegal, or vice versa.
    I never stated whether the pill should be illegal or not. I will state that taking the pill with the intention to not fertilize eggs is a whole lot different than that actively seeking the murder of the unborn. Are the two morally equivalent? I am not sure. Are the intentions behind both acts different? Yes they are. I am against the use of the morning after pill because of the intent behind its use and by that same token I am ambivalent to the use of the pill to prevent pregnancies based on the intent. Scripture (like modern law) maintains a different moral view on the accidental killing (manslaughter) and the intentional killing (murder) of an individual. I believe the same logic can be applied here without inconsistencies in morality.

    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    If you can claim it is OK for a Catholic to believe that the government shouldn't outlaw the pill and other forms of BC, then you can't claim that it should be impossible for them to be pro-choice. Pro-choice isnt necessarily a judgment on the morality of the procedure, but a judgment on the government's role in a philosophically treacherous issue.
    It seems to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the view of pro-choice that you are implying is that I can believe that something is morally wrong for me but might be morally acceptable to another so I should abdicate my moral responsibilities to my brother and sister and let the Government keep the option open for them to commit an act that I find morally wrong. That reeks of me acquiescing to moral relativity and as you know I believe in a common set of morals for all people. Murder is murder and can't be prettied up with a title like pro-choice. How can a individual who sees abortion as murder accept the belief that someone else can murder and it not be wrong for them. "Am I my brother's keeper?" When I am trying to stop my sister from murdering one of my other brothers or sisters, I just might be. Because the law says that they have this right, my only recourse is to pray for them and if asked, to give them my opinion. Nothing, however, stops me for supporting political candidates who hold the same views and morals that I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    After a couple thousand years of hard learned lessons, we have thankfully mostly removed its authority in the political system. However, it's trying to usurp the power back by telling its members to vote their way... or else. They've simply stepped outside the bounds of their expertise, yet pretended they are just as authoritative.... as if they are the final say of God's will in political and governmental matters, and not just theological ones.
    The Church never should have had the total societal power that it did in the dark and middle ages. But I will argue that any group religious or otherwise would have fallen victim to the same behavior so don't lay that behavior at the feet of religion. Lay it justly where it belongs at the feet of man's sinful nature. With that said, why should the Church be treated differently than any other organization in the country? If the church has no right to endorse candidates and policy based on its world view then no organization has this right. When you silence the church, you must also silence the unions, social organizations, ecological groups, anti-war groups, anarchists, economic organizations and anyone else who has a view on how government should be ran and what laws should be enacted.

    You have a particular distrust of the church that causes you to single it out and hold it to a different level of accountability than other groups. Your language and logical arguments highlight this. Sit back and look at your view of the church and compare it to your view of other organizations that have an interest in the direction that America moves and tell me if you feel that you are treating all equally.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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  7. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    How is sharing the churches beliefs and values telling them how to vote "at spiritual gun point?" Unions do this, they give out lists of the politicians and causes they expect the rank and file to endorse. And just like the unions the congregants are able to vote their conscience regardless as to what they hear from the pulpit. If this is immoral then you are say that every organization and group that provides guidance to their members is doing something immoral by coercing their members to vote a certain way. For the record, my church doesn't tell me who it endorses. It does provide me a list of all the candidates and lists what they do and don't support. I am free to make the determination on who I vote for based on that criteria or any other that I choose to use.
    Union's don't hold their souls for ransom. What we are talking about is a far cry from a union pressuring someone or recommending votes. Consequences that any other organization can bring to bear upon someone are all of a material nature, and temporary. The church, (and churches) have a much more sinister and severe carrot to dangle... the salvation or damnation of your eternal soul.

    They immorally exercise this control so that we have millions of Catholics basically submitting proxy votes for the Vatican.

    I never stated whether the pill should be illegal or not. I will state that taking the pill with the intention to not fertilize eggs is a whole lot different than that actively seeking the murder of the unborn. Are the two morally equivalent? I am not sure. Are the intentions behind both acts different? Yes they are. I am against the use of the morning after pill because of the intent behind its use and by that same token I am ambivalent to the use of the pill to prevent pregnancies based on the intent. Scripture (like modern law) maintains a different moral view on the accidental killing (manslaughter) and the intentional killing (murder) of an individual. I believe the same logic can be applied here without inconsistencies in morality.
    Do you think the government should outlaw the pill? I'm willing to bet most Catholics' and most pro-lifer's wouldn't be comfortable with that idea. How can you say that anything short of prohibition for the pill is acceptable in any way (same to all the Catholics out there), unless it is needed in the most grave of circumstances? Maybe you can forgive some peoples culpability, if they are operating from a position of ignorance on the possible ways the pill works, but you cannot sit there and say that it is OK for the pill to be legal and also remain consistent with an abortion prohibitionist position.

    And if you can at least understand why a Catholic might say that the government shouldnt be outlawing the pill, you can understand how a Catholic might also say the government shouldn't outlaw abortion... and consequently why its wrong for Catholic church officials to be threatening people with excommunication and things of that nature for voting for pro-choice candidates.

    It seems to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the view of pro-choice that you are implying is that I can believe that something is morally wrong for me but might be morally acceptable to another so I should abdicate my moral responsibilities to my brother and sister and let the Government keep the option open for them to commit an act that I find morally wrong. That reeks of me acquiescing to moral relativity and as you know I believe in a common set of morals for all people.

    It's not moral relativity... it's asking you acknowledge that your moral position is not infallible. Yes, you should let the government keep the option open. This in no way hinders any other efforts to help convince society that your moral position on abortion is the right one.

    Using the government to force the rest of the country to adhere to your moral standard is... immoral.

    Murder is murder and can't be prettied up with a title like pro-choice. How can a individual who sees abortion as murder accept the belief that someone else can murder and it not be wrong for them. "Am I my brother's keeper?" When I am trying to stop my sister from murdering one of my other brothers or sisters, I just might be. Because the law says that they have this right, my only recourse is to pray for them and if asked, to give them my opinion. Nothing, however, stops me for supporting political candidates who hold the same views and morals that I do.

    The Church never should have had the total societal power that it did in the dark and middle ages. But I will argue that any group religious or otherwise would have fallen victim to the same behavior so don't lay that behavior at the feet of religion. Lay it justly where it belongs at the feet of man's sinful nature. With that said, why should the Church be treated differently than any other organization in the country? If the church has no right to endorse candidates and policy based on its world view then no organization has this right. When you silence the church, you must also silence the unions, social organizations, ecological groups, anti-war groups, anarchists, economic organizations and anyone else who has a view on how government should be ran and what laws should be enacted.

    You have a particular distrust of the church that causes you to single it out and hold it to a different level of accountability than other groups. Your language and logical arguments highlight this. Sit back and look at your view of the church and compare it to your view of other organizations that have an interest in the direction that America moves and tell me if you feel that you are treating all equally.
    Church's should be held to a different standard... as I said before, we are talking about supposedly eternal consequences, something far greater and more powerful than any material consequences that one could suffer.. Churches, in theory, have a much greater position of leverage with which to coerce their members into action. Anyone should distrust any and all organizations with that type of authority and power.
    Last edited by wilbur; 10-18-2008 at 06:18 PM.
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  8. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Union's don't hold their souls for ransom. What we are talking about is a far cry from a union pressuring someone or recommending votes. Consequences that any other organization can bring to bear upon someone are all of a material nature, and temporary. The church, (and churches) have a much more sinister and severe carrot to dangle... the salvation or damnation of your eternal soul.

    They immorally exercise this control so that we have millions of Catholics basically submitting proxy votes for the Vatican.
    Because you are not a believer you have erroneous concepts of how believers view God and the Church. This is understandable. The church doesn't hold one's soul for ransom either. The church and I see eye to eye on most issues but on some we part ways. My soul is not in jeopardy because I see things differently that the Church. Catholics believe in the infallibility of the Pope but Protestants recognize that the Church errs just like humans do. Only God and his manifestations are beyond error so just because a Church tells a believer something doesn't make it so. We must validate what we are taught with what is in scripture. The lack of verification is why people like Fred Phelps and David Koresh manage to find followers. The man purpose of a Church is for broader understanding of God's word, worship of the Lord and fellowship with other Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Do you think the government should outlaw the pill? I'm willing to bet most Catholics' and most pro-lifers wouldn't be comfortable with that idea. How can you say that anything short of prohibition for the pill is acceptable in any way (same to all the Catholics out there), unless it is needed in the most grave of circumstances? Maybe you can forgive some peoples culpability, if they are operating from a position of ignorance on the possible ways the pill works, but you cannot sit there and say that it is OK for the pill to be legal and also remain consistent with an abortion prohibitionist position.
    Personally I don't care one way or the other what the government does or does not do concerning the pill because that is a secular matter and between man and man's government. If I was asked to vote on a law that would outlaw the pill I might vote yes or I might vote no. I am not sure. I would have to know the details before I could make a intellectual decision on that. I can say that from my moral high horse that using the pill for abortion purposes is wrong. But I am not willing to through the baby out with the bath water. I know of no Scripture that says that birth control is wrong. Until such a time as someone can show me in Scripture where prevention is immoral I will support it. As Luther said "I cannot do otherwise".

    If someone decides to use the pill for abortion purposes then that is between them and God. Since the pill is legal they have that ability. The pill has dual uses, one I consider amoral and the other I see as immoral but I'm not the one who is going to have to speak with God about that decision to abort. I have enough issues in my life to answer to God for without adding someone else’s.

    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    And if you can at least understand why a Catholic might say that the government shouldnt be outlawing the pill, you can understand how a Catholic might also say the government shouldn't outlaw abortion... and consequently why it’s wrong for Catholic church officials to be threatening people with excommunication and things of that nature for voting for pro-choice candidates.
    Abortion has but one purpose. Would I vote to outlaw abortion? In a infants heartbeat I would. The pill on the other hand inhabits what can best be described as a morally gray area. I am not a Catholic but if a Catholic worshipper feels strongly enough that abortion and contraception is correct then they should be willing to accept excommunication. If they feel strongly enough that these things are not morally wrong then they have nothing to fear from God .However, I suspect that the outcry is more along the lines of desiring to have their view point upheld by the Catholic Church and therefore having someone to blame if they meet the Lord and find out they are wrong.



    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    It's not moral relativity... it's asking you acknowledge that your moral position is not infallible. Yes, you should let the government keep the option open. This in no way hinders any other efforts to help convince society that your moral position on abortion is the right one.

    Using the government to force the rest of the country to adhere to your moral standard is... immoral.
    If I didn't believe that my moral point of view right then it wouldn't be a moral point of view would it? It would be a opinion. Opinions are not morals. As I said above the government can do what it will do and if it wants to keep abortion legal then that is ok. However, if given the choice to vote on it I'm going to vote with my morals.

    The bolded portion is a completely hypocritical position my atheist friend. You seem to be saying that I can't use government to reflect my morals but you may use the government to force your morals on the unborn. My morality doesn't forbid me from using my morals for social decisions and apparently yours does. But you are now asking me to accept your morals and let abortion remain unfettered and my morals must remain silent. If abortion didn't involve the murder of the unborn I wouldn't have a problem with this and I would say fine let people make a morally poor decision if they want. Unfortunately a defenseless third party is involved so the situation is more complex. My morals tell me to defend those who can't defend themselves.


    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Church's should be held to a different standard... as I said before, we are talking about supposedly eternal consequences, something far greater and more powerful than any material consequences that one could suffer.. Churches, in theory, have a much greater position of leverage with which to coerce their members into action. Anyone should distrust any and all organizations with that type of authority and power.
    A person is made righteous by his relationship with God and not by his relationship to the Visible Church. A person does not answer to the Church for his sins but to God and Christ bleed to death to play for the sins of believers, not the Church. The only leverage a Church has over someone is the leverage that they give the Church. Many, and I mean many, people have left one Church to join another because they could not accept the teaching or moral views of the Church they previously attended. Lots of these people are Catholic. I am an Anglican and we have lots of people who were once Catholic. People are not as bound to their church as you seem to believe.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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  9. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by megimoo View Post
    If they are against the teachings of the church why do they remain Catholics .
    Good question. Why haven't they been excommunicated?
    Stand up for what is right, even if you have to stand alone.
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  10. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Prove it. Prove that a freshly conceived egg deserves human rights.

    It IS alive and it IS human. The DNA proves it. Unless you want to contradict science, DNA determines species.
    I long for the days when our President actually liked our country.
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