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  1. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Race is less a determining factor for support of gay marriage... the major determining factor is religious affiliation.
    Dude, the numbers of Black Baptists and Black Methodists and Hispanic Catholics (the great majority of which voted for Obama) that voted to shootdown gay marriage in California outnumbered the Mormon vote by several times. Do you think these people would have never voted against gay marriage if not for the Mormons?

    Are you always this stupid or are you just on a roll today?
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  2. #22  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    If every Mormon church or member from out of state that contributed to prop 8, didn't for some reason, it most likely wouldn't have passed. No matter which way you slice it, they are the primary culprits for the success of that measure. And the Mormon's/religious influence behind prop 8 successfully targeted the minority populations hard hoping to capitalize on the anticipated higher than usual turn out among those demographics.

    In the end the entire thing was started and driven by white religious organizations, the Mormans being the most significant.

    The cowardly scapegoating of the black population is a brilliant tactic though. +10 evil genius points for that one..
    Scapegoating? Dude you are really stetching for this one.... Gosh that is funny.

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  3. #23  
    Senior Member Dan D. Doty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Again... if it werent for the work of the Mormons (many out-of-staters too, no less)... Prop 8 wouldn't have even been on the ballot



    So because of this they should be immune to criticism and protest?
    No.

    How did that old saying go " those that forget history are condemed to repeat it".

    All you are doing is scapegoating someone else for your failures.

    Sunday, Gay activists disrupt services in a church in Michigan, before that there was the 80 yrd woman who was assualted during a protest . Do really believing these things are going to help your cause by acting like spoiled brats, or bullies?

    The general public see these things and all does is alienate the Gay community more; acting like assholes doesn't get people on your side, it drives them away.
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  4. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    Scapegoating? Dude you are really stetching for this one.... Gosh that is funny.
    C'mon now... its documented clearly, the Mormon church provided the lions share of the funds for prop 8 campaigns. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. They mobilized nationally to take a stand, in particular, on a single state's particular ballot initiative... and they are feeling backlash from it, in the form of protests. That is why they are specifically being singled out. It's not a mystery.

    They picked a fight, then feign victimization after getting attacked back. I don't condone the actions of some of the protesters... such as the group who invaded the church (not a Mormon church btw)... but give me a freaking break here...
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  5. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan D. Doty View Post
    No.

    How did that old saying go " those that forget history are condemed to repeat it".

    All you are doing is scapegoating someone else for your failures.

    Sunday, Gay activists disrupt services in a church in Michigan, before that there was the 80 yrd woman who was assualted during a protest . Do really believing these things are going to help your cause by acting like spoiled brats, or bullies?

    The general public see these things and all does is alienate the Gay community more; acting like assholes doesn't get people on your side, it drives them away.
    You think they don't know what the opposition thinks? Just take a tour around this site and see the bigoted shit that gets posted and discussed as if its common knowledge... gays are pedophiles, leads to bestiality, they want to brainwash your kids into homosexuality etc etc... that is the face of the anti-homosexuality movement... all kinds of ignorance proudly on display... yet they think these truths are safely disguised behind a friendly veneer of 'hate the sin not the sinner'.. but no one is fooled, and the homosexual rights crowd is pissed off, and rightly so. Equal treatment under the law for a minority group generally isnt handed over peacefully with a smile... equality is resisted tooth and nail by the entrenched institutions and traditions who disguise their bigotry with pseudo-rational justifications and platitudes. They are angry and rightly so.... not sure how anyone could have expected anything else, really.
    Last edited by wilbur; 11-18-2008 at 12:24 AM.
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  6. #26  
    Moderator lurkalot's Avatar
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    I am not a member of the LDS faith. In fact I find some of their beliefs down right ridiculous. However, I work with and live in a community that is largely LDS. I find those members that live by their faith to have an incredible sense of family values and family worth, belief in the sanctity of all life, and do not display bigotry. They embody an Old Fashioned sense of family values and morals that is truly admirable.
    So why are they being singled out for supporting the values that they chose to live by and believe are right? Did anyone burn down some celebrity's home when he/she was all over the press supporting banning the death penalty or letting some murderer out of the death penalty for writing a book? Did the LDS church protest outside of the taping of the Ellen show when she got married? Or outside the Governators home when he allowed the star trek guy to tie the knot? Why is it not okay for a group of people who share a set of beliefs and ideals to campaign and support those ideals...I thought that was the point of democracy and free speech?
    I'm confused here, this is requiring thought, and you know this serious stuff gives me a headache :mad:
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  7. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by lurkalot View Post
    I am not a member of the LDS faith. In fact I find some of their beliefs down right ridiculous. However, I work with and live in a community that is largely LDS. I find those members that live by their faith to have an incredible sense of family values and family worth, belief in the sanctity of all life, and do not display bigotry. They embody an Old Fashioned sense of family values and morals that is truly admirable.
    So why are they being singled out for supporting the values that they chose to live by and believe are right? Did anyone burn down some celebrity's home when he/she was all over the press supporting banning the death penalty or letting some murderer out of the death penalty for writing a book? Did the LDS church protest outside of the taping of the Ellen show when she got married? Or outside the Governators home when he allowed the star trek guy to tie the knot? Why is it not okay for a group of people who share a set of beliefs and ideals to campaign and support those ideals...I thought that was the point of democracy and free speech?
    I'm confused here, this is requiring thought, and you know this serious stuff gives me a headache
    :mad:
    It is OK... its perfectly fine... and to be expected and encouraged in this country.. its also OK for another group to be angry over their actions and reciprocate.
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  8. #28  
    Moderator lurkalot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    It is OK... its perfectly fine... and to be expected and encouraged in this country.. its also OK for another group to be angry over their actions and reciprocate.
    Ok, so wouldnt' it make more sense to work to educate and change people's minds that may be on the fence on the issue? Instead of attacking or protesting people not likely to change their minds? I'm not picturing a mormon family leaving temple one day, seeing protesters outside the temple and suddenly thinking "wow, I am wrong, I need to vote to allow same sex marriage"...
    perhaps appealing to the people who couldn't give a rats ass one way or the other would be more fruitful?

    ouch..I gotta go take an advil
    I smile because I don't know what the heck is going on.
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  9. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by lurkalot View Post
    Ok, so wouldnt' it make more sense to work to educate and change people's minds that may be on the fence on the issue? Instead of attacking or protesting people not likely to change their minds? I'm not picturing a mormon family leaving temple one day, seeing protesters outside the temple and suddenly thinking "wow, I am wrong, I need to vote to allow same sex marriage"...
    perhaps appealing to the people who couldn't give a rats ass one way or the other would be more fruitful?

    ouch..I gotta go take an advil
    Probably, I don't know... I really always wonder how much good any protest actually does these days, unless its against a corporation or someone running for office.. or some other entity that might actually yield to you rather than face more bad PR... yet people do it all the time. Seems to be a pretty standard tactic, regardless.
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  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by lurkalot View Post
    I am not a member of the LDS faith. In fact I find some of their beliefs down right ridiculous. However, I work with and live in a community that is largely LDS. I find those members that live by their faith to have an incredible sense of family values and family worth, belief in the sanctity of all life, and do not display bigotry. They embody an Old Fashioned sense of family values and morals that is truly admirable.
    So why are they being singled out for supporting the values that they chose to live by and believe are right? Did anyone burn down some celebrity's home when he/she was all over the press supporting banning the death penalty or letting some murderer out of the death penalty for writing a book? Did the LDS church protest outside of the taping of the Ellen show when she got married? Or outside the Governators home when he allowed the star trek guy to tie the knot? Why is it not okay for a group of people who share a set of beliefs and ideals to campaign and support those ideals...I thought that was the point of democracy and free speech?
    I'm confused here, this is requiring thought, and you know this serious stuff gives me a headache :mad:
    Part of bigotry is refusing to allow other people to live in a way that you don't agree with. You do not have to like what others do, but to prevent them from doing so because of your own ideas is bigotry. The whole idea of Old Fashioned Family Values is so open to interpretation, I'm surprise it has any meaning anymore. But no matter what a person believes in, I don't think they have the right to force it on other people.

    The point of democracy and free speech is not to decide on issues of rights. If over 50% of the population vote to take away a womans right to own property, or to stop black people from entering their schools, etc, is that ok? At what point does democracy end and human rights begin?

    In other places, gay unions are defined as a right. They aren't open to this silly debate any more than heterosexual marriage is. As long as marriage is a government institution, and as long as the government has no state religion and offers equal rights to it's citizens, it's a right. Does every religious institution have to like it, or to perform ceremonies? No. Absolutely not, they are free to refuse to marry whoever they like. But the government cannot refuse to marry two people based on their orientation, any more than they could because of their race or height or taste in music. And any church that wishes to perform the ceremonies has that choice as well. That's just the way it is. The idea that people are able to vote on an others rights is pretty upsetting. It isn't just about the word 'marriage' or a ceremony, it's about the privileges that come along with the choice to bind yourself to your partner.

    The problem with this whole free speech argument is that it goes both ways. Why is it not ok for others to call people on the carpet for their use of free speech? Who is denying them the right, as long as they do what they are doing legally, to say their piece? How is calling them out for it not doing exactly the same thing: to campaign and support those ideals.
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