Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
Well, that doesnt really help much... all that does is leave you with some nebulous conception of some undefined force... could just as easily be impersonal and non-cognizant as it could be anything else.

It still doesnt really work anyhow, because that first-cause argument relies on the assumption that everything that exists must have a cause, but then requires us to make a special exception for your concept of god.... just because. It refutes itself.
From a logical standpoint every effect must have a cause, but a cause need not be the product of a previous effect. Logically it doesn't refute itself because it isn't self contradictory. A cause can not be the cause of itself. That is self contradictory. It would in effect be both cause and effect in the same relationship. This is not possible, logically speaking. However logic is not broken by saying that a cause may not itself have a cause, only effects require a cause.

If you validate the truthfulness of the above statement then you can have a God that does not have a creator. It doesn't violate the rules of logic and is not a self referencing contradiction.