12-15-2008, 05:43 PM
You said it yourself... God works in mysterious ways. How can you be certain that deception is not one of those mysterious ways in which God works? If God can ordain the killing of infants to achieve a purpose then surely God can ordain lies to achieve a purpose.
It seems to me that if humans are the creations of a god then it may have given humans the ability to reason so that we may discern bad teachings from good teachings even when the teachings are said to be from the highest of authorities.
Last edited by The Night Owl; 12-15-2008 at 06:08 PM.Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
12-15-2008, 06:17 PMStand up for what is right, even if you have to stand alone.
12-15-2008, 06:25 PMUbi Dubium Ibi Libertas
12-15-2008, 06:34 PMStand up for what is right, even if you have to stand alone.
12-15-2008, 08:24 PM“For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.
To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life. And who is equal to such a task?”
2 Corinthians 2:15-16
12-15-2008, 11:34 PM
am I the only one who knows how the various canons came into being and usage in the first place?? GAH.Stand up for what is right, even if you have to stand alone.
12-16-2008, 11:58 AM
- Join Date
- May 2008
I think the philosophy you touch upon above squarely puts free will in the realm of illusion, and at the same time makes any action that God may inflict upon us, no matter how deplorable, as moral. It strips humans of their innate worth as living, autonomous beings capable of free will. It encourages the concept that we are inherently without worth, except as the playthings of this God. Calvinism leads to such dehumanizing conclusions, which is why, even though I know you are a good and decent guy, you can say with a straight face that it is just for God to condemn babies to hell before they even have a chance to be born.
No free will, no worth, toys of a divine puppeteer. Things He does to us are moral because He does them, not because He only does what is moral. Then, of course, things get a little sticky and confusing when we hear that it is wrong for God to violate one's free will.. its our choice to choose him, but its already pre-ordained... what?!? Can you at least begin to see how appeals to divine revelation as the only way to reconcile these contradictions really seem like evasions, not explanations?
Just because a person is predisposed to one action over another the state of ones freewill is not affected. Some scientists believe that are DNA drives our behavior and that almost all our choices are predisposed to one over the other. Our DNA leads someone to favor blue over red. Is the free will absent because of this? Your DNA makes you more attacted to blondes over brunettes is your free will being limited. I perfer asian women over caucasion women but that doesn't stop me from picking a caucasion woman to date. My free will is still in tact.
It may be the simplest, easiest thing in the world for either of us not to cheat on a spouse or partner... on the other hand, some people are very predisposed to such things, and it may take all their force of will to keep their fidelity. In a way, their accomplishment in remaining true to their spouse would be much greater than yours or mine. Also in the same way if they slipped their transgression would be less than either yours or mine, generally.
So I guess the question is, what do you consider free will and do you feel that all your choices in life are free? Consider this, you are robbed and the theif says "your money or your life", has your free will been removed because your choices have been limited. In someway all our choices have limitations placed on them via law or social norms. Does that mean that we don't have free will?
In the case of a thief, yes, he has immorally confined your free will... violated your autonomy. There may be others choices, such as running or fighting, but these aren't options for many people. I think that example is very analogous to the Abrahamic religions conception of God. Granting us the free will to determine our own choices (limited options of course), but demanding we make very specific choices at the threat of force. A thief in the night indeed.
Last edited by wilbur; 12-16-2008 at 02:32 PM.
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