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  1. #11  
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    The bailout merely postpones the inevitable.......the Big 3 must adapt or die. Executive golden parachutes?,....gone. UAW retiree healthcare and pensions,......gone. This blatant attempt at UAW payoffs for their support is going to destroy the industry they now are attempting to save.
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  2. #12  
    Senior Member nacho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadCat View Post
    Their politics are different than mine, so fuck 'em and the horses they rode in on.
    You must be one of those compassionate conservatives.

    I remember a day when patriotic Americans supported American companies. Guess that went out with bell bottoms.
    “When the doctor is out, I’m in.”
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  3. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by nacho View Post
    You pretty much summed it up, noonwitch.

    These are fellow Americans who are facing catastrophe and I don't think anyone should be happy or even indifferent about that. Unions have their misfits but so do religions and political parties. We can't just say 'well my politics are different from theirs so let 'em die'.
    I am a Michigander also and the way I see it, the ONLY way for the Big three to continue is to get rid of the Union.

    I have Relatives who are UAW members and the amount of wasted labor that goes on in the plants is astounding.

    Just across the road from one of my clients is one of the "job bank" locations. Hundreds of UAW members are getting paid to play cards at this location.

    Perhaps even worse than this is the work rules that drive up the costs even further. You literally can get reprimanded for cleaning up your own coffee spill (my brother suffered exactly this fate). He worked as an on site representative of one of the trucking companies that delivered parts to one of theLansing plants. He once relayed to me his frustrations in scheduling deliveries to the plant. No deliveries 1/2 hour before or after a scheduled 1/2 hour break or 1 hour lunch (not sure of the exact times). It worked out to something like the MOST possible hours the dockworkers could spend actually working was about 3 hours out of an 8 hour "work" day.


    The best way to save the auto companies and ultimately these jobs is to force a bankruptcy that will allow the reconfiguring of the UAW contracts.

    Corker's plan was full of smart and workable things to fix the situation and it all failed because Gettlefinger refused to set a date certain for Union concessions.

    I would have favored (maybe) the bridge loan if Corkers plan were the one being put in place. As it stands now, and with Bush's plan to use the bank bailout money for this, we are simply setting ourselves up for more handouts and more failures in the future.
    I long for the days when our President actually liked our country.
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  4. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by nacho View Post
    You must be one of those compassionate conservatives.

    I remember a day when patriotic Americans supported American companies. Guess that went out with bell bottoms.
    Supported them for making the right decisions and being viable, it is just dumb to support a sinking ship for whatever reason in capitalism.
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  5. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by nacho View Post
    You must be one of those compassionate conservatives.

    I remember a day when patriotic Americans supported American companies. Guess that went out with bell bottoms.

    So the Unions should count on the votes of those in the party they work very hard to defeat every election. They throw wheelbarrows full of money at the Democrats so that Republicans can go down in defeat and now they want their support? So Nacho? Are you going to start singing the praises of President Bush since he is going to force a bailout anyway? Or are you just going to be an ungrateful fuck?
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  6. #16  
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    Aren't you just a piece of...work. If you wonder why unions officially support democrats, look around you. They don't exactly get much sympathy with Republican types do they? Of course they're now seeing they don't get much sympathy from democrat types either. At least Bush is thinking properly, that ought to get them questioning their official loyalties. Of course if you knew any union people you'd know many of them vote Republican anyway.

    I have Relatives who are UAW members and the amount of wasted labor that goes on in the plants is astounding.
    CS, that happens in every workplace. For some reason it's only really held against blue collar workers. As for the jobs banks, living in the area I'm sure you read this:
    http://www.freep.com/article/2008112...SS01/311200023
    The UAW is willing to give it up. At least that's what was going to happen before the Senate chose their personal interests over national ones by preferring foreign makers over US makers.
    “When the doctor is out, I’m in.”
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  7. #17  
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    One of the first jobs I had was a Tool & Die apprentice for GM back in the 60s.
    After graduation, I found that my craft became secondary to the union's wishes.

    After 10 years there I just couldn't reconcile my beliefs and practice in self reliance with the disconnected demands of the UAW. I'm quite sure unions were vital to the contribution of reasonable and fair labor practices by big business, but in my estimation, the time of the unions has passed.

    They should have been busted in the 70s when we had the chance. Now, we all pay the price for our excesses.
    Secular militants, not Christian conservatives, currently strive to transform America in a way our founders would neither recognize nor approve.
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  8. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by nacho View Post
    You must be one of those compassionate conservatives.

    I remember a day when patriotic Americans supported American companies. Guess that went out with bell bottoms.
    Nope.
    I'm a patriotic American who hates liberals and the unions that support them.

    rm -rf obama*
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  9. #19  
    Senior Member Constitutionally Speaking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nacho View Post
    Aren't you just a piece of...work. If you wonder why unions officially support democrats, look around you. They don't exactly get much sympathy with Republican types do they? Of course they're now seeing they don't get much sympathy from democrat types either. At least Bush is thinking properly, that ought to get them questioning their official loyalties. Of course if you knew any union people you'd know many of them vote Republican anyway.



    CS, that happens in every workplace. For some reason it's only really held against blue collar workers. As for the jobs banks, living in the area I'm sure you read this:
    http://www.freep.com/article/2008112...SS01/311200023
    The UAW is willing to give it up. At least that's what was going to happen before the Senate chose their personal interests over national ones by preferring foreign makers over US makers.

    The Senate did no such thing. Corker had a WORKABLE plan that would instantly make the big three competitive, and give them a real chance to survive. All the Union had to do was to sign on to a date certain for the concessions they said they were willing to make. They refused, because they wanted to milk the govt. for the money and drag out the concessions until the next bailout.


    The problem with the Big 3 is not that they are making cars no one wants to buy - they have a very large percentage of the market. The problem is they can't make MONEY on the cars that they sell. Their costs are too high - and that is laid directly on the shoulders of the UAW (and management past for caving in to the blackmail)
    I long for the days when our President actually liked our country.
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  10. #20  
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    With all due respect and sympathy to those who lose their jobs, I don't support the bailout. Let me explain.

    In this bailout, the Unions are the root cause of the poor condition of the companies. The problem is the Unions have forced the companies to assume the cost of healthcare. There are other factors too but I'll leave it at one.

    I've listened to the lame excuses that attempt to dismiss this as a causal factor. I don't buy it. Other companies are thriving or at least not verging on bankruptcy. American cars are well made. They are a good value. The Japanese make good cars too yet the companies don't assume as much overhead for the workers. The workers also make less hourly wages.

    I see the Unions as dangerous to business and dangerous for the country. They drive business overseas and into bankruptcy. They have outlived their usefulness and have eveolved into a bloated and dangerous bureaucracy that holds the owners hostage to their demands.

    I also use to cautiously support the bailout but only because it seemed to me that was the only voice I heard from ALL sources. Those same people planted the seeds of doubt about the necessity of a bailout because they are the same people that cried "The Sky Is Falling" and warned that failure to act is disasterous, "Immediate action is necessary' "Dogs ad Cats Living together, etc. Our economy is still here. We are not at 1930's levels. Our banks are still open.

    I guess I doubt the drastic predictions. None have happened and the actual bailouts to date have yet to fix the economy.

    I say we wait it out. The companies need to streamline and trim the fat. Amputate the Unions. Reorganize and allow the economy to slowly recover. Americans will still buy cars we just won't buy as many as fast.
    Education without values, as useful as it is, seems rather to make man a more clever devil.
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    Do not ever say that the desire to "do good" by force is a good motive. Neither power-lust nor stupidity are good motives. (Are you listening Barry)?:mad:
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