I'd like to add a couple thought to Odysseus' post. Firstly, if an embryo or fetus were not fully human, medical science wouldn't want to use them so desperately.
Secondly, in many states, supporting the "woman's choice" is not 18 years. For example, in Missouri, it's 21 years of child support, and a proportional share of college expenses. (Mr. Smith pays 60% of college expenses in addition to the monthly support for his adult daughter.)
Beyond that, I fully agree.
Last edited by wilbur; 01-20-2009 at 10:20 PM.
What is the difference between the capacity for something has and the potential something has? Just curious seeing as you spent several pages denying that potential had any bearing in this argument.We have been talking about capacities... my talk about capacities naturally reflects the ways in which we intuitively treat organisms in the world and how we feel about their rights.
I'll try to reduce the verbiage here, so this is more to the point: We can all imagine the pain, suffering or joy of others (these are all capacities)... which enables empathy. Along with this, we have our own desires, dreams, joys, etc (these are all capacities). Human rights, including the right to life, come from the wishes to fulfil our own desires.. and recognizing that others also wish to fulfil theirs... even if its the unspoken and inarticulate desires of a baby.... who have human capacities, although in a primitive form.
Embryo's have no such capacities, hence the concerns of the mother come first... until such time as it gains those capacities in some form. Got it?
On a more material level, we have also learned the hard way all through history... that without some form of human rights enshrined in a society... it becomes a place of pain, misery, death, and slavery... it was these hard, painful and oft repeated lessons that caused philosophers and great thinkers to posit the idea of human rights. We learned that, as a consequence of the structure of the world, the universe, and everything... it is really impossible to create a place where my desires and rights cannot be interfered with unjustly, while allowing the rights of my neighbours to be interfered with unjustly.
Last edited by wilbur; 01-22-2009 at 01:25 AM.
If you have a solid chunk of steel (or whatever metals they use in cars these days), ready to be machined into an engine, is it far to say that piece of metal can go from 0-60 in 3 seconds? It does not have the capacity.. but it has potential. Now once that piece of metal is machined and installed in the Ferrari in your garage... it now has that capacity.
You are trying to imply that since scientists want to use, create, or destroy embryos for research (they already do btw)... that this somehow proves that they are 'human'.
They also love to research rats and other animals, specifically to test and discover treatments for human beings.
If we consistently apply your logic here, that means rats are human. This is simply some nonsensical reasoning here MrsSmith. As an aside, I have never disagreed that embryos are human... but its not the criteria of genetically human which concerns me so much.
Last edited by wilbur; 01-22-2009 at 01:24 AM.
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