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  1. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythic View Post
    And killing a fetus is different than killing a human how? A fetus is a human just in early stages of development.An act of killing a human is always wrong. You are trying to go off track by talking about killing bugs. Well they aren't humans. A fetus is a human.
    No, I was responding to Milly actually with that whole little digression.. but I'm working on yours, be patient ;)
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  2. #32  
    Senior Member Mythic's Avatar
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    No, I was responding to Milly actually with that whole little digression.. but I'm working on yours, be patient
    So? I can still defend other people too lol
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  3. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwater View Post
    It's like you're taking away a human's chance to exist, a very disturbing concept to me at least.

    People who argue for or against abortion over more grounds than "it's a womans choice" or "I'm a christian" get my respect.
    I'm not sure who that was directed at. In any case I argue against abortion from whatever point of view is necessary to make my point. Religious, moral, social or scientific are not out of bounds in my opinion. Sadly enough I see Wilburs point, but I can't get behind it because it cheapens and devalues human life.
    Last edited by FlaGator; 12-23-2008 at 10:11 PM.

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  4. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    I'm not sure who that was directed at. In any case I argue against abortion from whatever point of view is necessary to make my point. Religious, moral, social or scientific are not out of bounds in my opinion. Sadly enough I see Wilburs point, but I can't get behind it because it cheapens and devalues human life.
    Depends, is your argument against abortion based on your religion? Or whether you have the facts and have formed a opinion against it?
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  5. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwater View Post
    Depends, is your argument against abortion based on your religion? Or whether you have the facts and have formed a opinion against it?
    My religious beliefs and the morals I derive from my religious beliefs define not only my point of view but also who I am. Because I view abortion as an immoral act I speak against it. However I understand that my values aren't held by everyone so I try not to make it solely a Christian issue. I will ask you, what reasons, if morality is not valid, do you find acceptible for a person to take an anti-abortion stance.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
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  6. #36  
    Senior Member Mythic's Avatar
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    I am also a Christian, and I believe abortion is wrong because of what I am taught through my religion. But like FlaGator said, not everyone is the same religion. This is why I try not to use arguments like "God said so" or "the Bible says" because if one is an atheist they would give a damn what God or the Bible says.
    "Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives."
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  7. #37  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythic View Post
    Actually, twins do not have identical DNA. It is very similar, but there are differences. So you value your friends because of their brains? DNA is a blueprint for a person. If you destroy that blueprint there is no person. But the fetus is not a blueprint, it is the beginings of the person developing.
    Hmm looking into it appears this is correct in a way... twins have the same genotype, but gene expression (phenotype, the physical visible characteristics) differs.. I don't really have enough genetics knowledge to go a whole farther here or to know if I'm off base. But it doesn't matter. The point of the comparison is to show an example of why DNA, although an essential required component, does not confer person-hood. There are several other examples here we can use...

    ... some parts snipped for brevity...

    Ask yourself why most of us would feel absolutely no pangs of conscience or compassion for fruit flies when they are the subject of experiments... but we might feel something for a monkey, or a dolphin... what is it that makes the difference? Any of those are just as alive as the other... but why might one get more consideration? Is it the development of their bodies? They are all fully developed. Is it the presence of the DNA that makes the difference? They all have DNA in the amounts necessary for them to exist. Or is it something else... something to do with the mind.. the consciousness.. the capacity to suffer.. awareness? I think you will have no choice but to say that it is primarily, if not utterly, those latter considerations... and that's exactly what makes the difference in a fetus.

    We can talk about 'potential this' and 'potential that' all day long... but as long as its simply potential.. you essentially want to convict someone of murder on a foundation of 'what-ifs' and 'it coulda been's...

    So you have moved from brain to personality. Yes, a baby does have a will and a personality. Where does it develop the ability? As the fetus. The very beginings of human life are in the fetus. Even a baby does not have a fully developed personality. Human life is a never ending process of development and then deterioration as we age. A fetus is the very start of life, and slowly it develops into a newborn baby, which will then continue to grow over the years into an adult. I do not believe that a fetus has any less worth than a child or adult. Without the fetus there is no child.

    Back to the brain. By seven to eight weeks into a pregnancy a brain begins to develop. 60% of abortions occur at 8 weeks or later. If the brain had began to develop at 7 weeks that would add 20% to that number. Only 20% of all abortions occur before 7 weeks. As I have said before the DNA is what makes the brain. But because a fetus does not have a fully developed brain, is it right to kill it? Teenagers do not even have fully developed brains. A fetus is different from a child. It is the very begining, a child cannot appear out of nothing. I cannot murder people that annoy me because they are people. They are living people who have life. A fetus is living. It has a life. What is your reasoning for not killing people? Is it that as long as a person has a brain that person should not be killed? If so then 80% of abortions are not justified.
    Brain function does not start until 20-22 weeks... Until that time any brain tissue is simply scaffolding.. I should have clarified that earlier. Even then we aren't really sure what kind of function is present.. but that is the time where, for the first time, we cannot be sure that awareness has not developed. Prior to that, it is as certain as the fact that water is wet, that the fetus is an empty shell. Many of you may be compelled by maternal instincts and emotion to think of it as more than that.. especially while carrying.. and that is great, and good.. but you are thinking of what could be, not of what is... no being has materialized.

    I switch back and forth between brain/personality/cognition etc because the distinction really isnt so clear. All those are properties of an active brain, they cannot exist without one. The brain is the final brick put into place that solidifies person-hood, cognition. Without there is no suffering, no pain, no will, no mind... no person. Perhaps one day we could artificially build the most beautiful and magnificent human body... but it will not be a person until it has an active brain, and our ethics regarding it would be unrestricted unless it did. Personality and will are only present in a neurologically active brain.. not before, not after.

    Then once you start to examine the consequences of the 'life at conception' ideology for the beings that would be restricted from exercising their will.. whether it be for economic reasons or otherwise.. you can see why it is immoral to restrict their right to act as they will towards a fetus. We havent even touched embryonic medical research in the areas of fertility, cloning, and stem cell treatments and the implications such research has for all of us... it is immoral and wrong not to allow embryonic research and experimentation (I mention this because it would also get swallowed up and halted by the 'life at conception' ideology).
    Last edited by wilbur; 12-24-2008 at 02:39 AM.
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  8. #38  
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    Excellent article, thanks for posting it, Meg! It really does sum up the twisted times we live in.

    "Not really, I am simply saying that the majority of environmentalists have nothing to do with pantheism and definitely not Baalism"
    If you actually paid attention to the article, you would see it said "Radical environmentalism." That's NOT the conservatives who just want to preserve sections of nature and leave their children something in it to enjoy and camp and fish in. It is the radical leftists from groups like Earth First, the ELF, etc., who encourage bombing construction sites, torching SUVs (Which, incidentally, releases more harmful toxins into the air within a matter of minutes than the SUVs would have released over decades of normal usage), and advocating the extermination of the human race. It is the radical leftists in higher offices of government who want to keep us from becoming energy independent by squawking like angry parrots about "Global Warming."
    Last edited by movie buff; 12-24-2008 at 07:18 AM.
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  9. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post

    Ask yourself why most of us would feel absolutely no pangs of conscience or compassion for fruit flies when they are the subject of experiments... but we might feel something for a monkey, or a dolphin... what is it that makes the difference? Any of those are just as alive as the other... but why might one get more consideration? Is it the development of their bodies? They are all fully developed. Is it the presence of the DNA that makes the difference? They all have DNA in the amounts necessary for them to exist. Or is it something else... something to do with the mind.. the consciousness.. the capacity to suffer.. awareness? I think you will have no choice but to say that it is primarily, if not utterly, those latter considerations... and that's exactly what makes the difference in a fetus.
    So a human life is no better than a monkey or a dolphin? I value a fetus more than a monkey. A fetus IS a human. And believe it or not, fruit flies and mosquitos feel pain as well. All living animals sense pain. Yet people do not feel pangs of compassion when a fruit fly is killed. Why? Because a fruit fly is not as intelligent as a monkey? Infants are not as intelligent as their adult counterparts, why not kill them as well? You cannot justify abortion by using intelligence as the reason. A fetus is a developing human, and with time it will grow a brain and become a unique functioning person.


    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Prior to that, it is as certain as the fact that water is wet, that the fetus is an empty shell.
    http://www.baby2see.com/development/week10.html
    That is a fetus at week 10. It doesn't look like an empty shell to me. I think I have found that your only point is that because a fetus has no brain or feelings, it is justified to kill it. I find that wrong, and I can never agree with you on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    We can talk about 'potential this' and 'potential that' all day long... but as long as its simply potential.. you essentially want to convict someone of murder on a foundation of 'what-ifs' and 'it coulda been's..
    Talking about potential is looking to the future to see what will become of something. Why not talk about potential? A fetus WILL develop into an adult. This is not a 'what if'. Do not say a killed fetus 'could have been' a human, it WOULD have been a person. Just like any other person. You were once a fetus, I was once a fetus...did our lives have less worth in that state simply because we had no functioning brain?

    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    The brain is the final brick put into place that solidifies person-hood, cognition. Without there is no suffering, no pain, no will, no mind... no person.
    Tell me...what is it that puts that brain into place? The brain does not just appear magically. The brain has to develop, and it still develops even as the fetus grows into a child. You can twist this however way you want, but when you get right down to it killing a fetus is ending human life.


    Quote Originally Posted by wilbur View Post
    Then once you start to examine the consequences of the 'life at conception' ideology for the beings that would be restricted from exercising their will.. whether it be for economic reasons or otherwise.. you can see why it is immoral to restrict their right to act as they will towards a fetus.
    The fetus should have a right to life. Imagine if your mother had the choice of having an abortion or keeping you and she kept you. Looking back, would you have wanted her to kill you? Or were you not really a human as a fetus, considering you had no brain yet? Was your life worthless until you were born? If we kill all poor people the economy would be better. Heck if we kill all the politicians the economy would skyrocket. Don't use economic means to justify that. To kill a fetus for economic means. To sacrifice the life of a developing human in order to live better. To sacrifice a baby in some relgious ritual in order to please the gods. Abortion is becoming even more similar to this topic the more you go on.
    Last edited by Mythic; 12-24-2008 at 02:27 PM.
    "Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives."
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  10. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    My religious beliefs and the morals I derive from my religious beliefs define not only my point of view but also who I am. Because I view abortion as an immoral act I speak against it. However I understand that my values aren't held by everyone so I try not to make it solely a Christian issue. I will ask you, what reasons, if morality is not valid, do you find acceptible for a person to take an anti-abortion stance.
    I derive my morals from my life experience and what I have percieved as right and wrong. Of course morality is valid, whether religion is was my statement.
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