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  1. #1 Christianity debate 
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InspiredHome View Post
    The dilemma of Proverbs 26:4-5 comes to mind.
    So does 1 Peter 3:15.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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  2. #2  
    Senior Member InspiredHome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    So does 1 Peter 3:15.
    I totally agree though sometimes it's like beating your head against a brick wall. :D
    Woe to those who call evil good
    and good evil,
    who put darkness for light
    and light for darkness,
    who put bitter for sweet
    and sweet for bitter.

    Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes
    and clever in their own sight.

    Isaiah 5:20-21
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  3. #3  
    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InspiredHome View Post
    I totally agree though sometimes it's like beating your head against a brick wall. :D
    I know but I enjoy watching the likes of LP stagger around being argumentative because he knows no other way to be. What can I say, it amuses me.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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  4. #4  
    Senior Member The Night Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    Sure I can. First in nature I can look at the structure of DNA and come to the conclusion that it appears to be a created not an accidentally derived structure.
    Appearances can be deceiving, but for the sake of argument, let us accept your idea that DNA appears to have been designed. If DNA appears to have been designed, then why should we assume that it was designed by God and not by extraterrestrials?

    OK, I have given you my reasons for the existence of God. Give me your reasons why He does not exist.
    I don't claim to know that God does not exist. The believers are the ones who make the extravagant claims. I'll remain open to the God hypothesis, but I'm not going to believe it unless someone provides evidence or a theory to support it.

    By the way, your posts are great. I don't agree with most of what you're writing, but I admire the fact that you really think this stuff through.

    Anyway, here is a short video you might find interesting...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9_dHjH34nY
    Last edited by The Night Owl; 06-21-2008 at 12:09 AM.
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    Power CUer FlaGator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    Appearances can be deceiving, but for the sake of argument, let us accept your idea that DNA appears to have been designed. If DNA appears to have been designed, then why should we assume that it was designed by God and not by extraterrestrials?
    I'm surprised you would suggest that when there is even less evidence of extraterrestrail existence than their is of God's existence. In my opinion it takes a bigger leap of faith to lay DNA creation at the feet of aliens than to does to give the credit to God.

    I don't claim to know that God does not exist. The believers are the ones who make the extravagant claims. I'll remain open to the God hypothesis, but I'm not going to believe it unless someone provides evidence or a theory to support it.

    By the way, your posts are great. I don't agree with most of what you're writing, but I admire the fact that you really think this stuff through.

    Anyway, here is a short video you might find interesting...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9_dHjH34nY

    That was a very interesting video. Thank you for sharing and thank you for the compliments. I enjoy debating this stuff with people like you who are will to listen and propose their own positions without letting it get personal. Some people take every decenting view as a personal attack.

    Anyways, I would ask you to consider Pascal's Wager. Wikepedia has a good definition of it

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

    It's interesting look at at Pascal's applied mathematics of decision making althought this example is a very simple case when compared to some of his other examples. Rationalists tend to dislike Pascal about as much as they dislike Immanuel Kant because they both put limits on the effectiveness of reason when dealing with the existence of God and made good arguments against reason being the end all in some deductive mental processes. Anyways. I hope you enjoy reading it and I'd like to hear your views. Also, pick up Francis Collin's book "The Language of God." It is very interesting reading concerning the design elements of DNA. I don't agree with all of his view points but he makes a fascinating case for why it is more probable that DNA was designed than accidentally formed.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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    Senior Member The Night Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaGator View Post
    I'm surprised you would suggest that when there is even less evidence of extraterrestrail existence than their is of God's existence. In my opinion it takes a bigger leap of faith to lay DNA creation at the feet of aliens than to does to give the credit to God.
    We have no evidence of either God or extraterrestrials. All we have is speculation.

    If you're going to embrace Intelligent Design, you've got to embrace the idea that the Designer is not necessarily the highest power but perhaps just a higher power. Even Michael Behe and William Dembski, two openly religious scientists who have done a lot of work in ID, admit that the Designer implicit in the ID hypothesis is not necessarily God.

    Anyways, I would ask you to consider Pascal's Wager. Wikepedia has a good definition of it

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

    It's interesting look at at Pascal's applied mathematics of decision making althought this example is a very simple case when compared to some of his other examples. Rationalists tend to dislike Pascal about as much as they dislike Immanuel Kant because they both put limits on the effectiveness of reason when dealing with the existence of God and made good arguments against reason being the end all in some deductive mental processes. Anyways. I hope you enjoy reading it and I'd like to hear your views.
    Thanks. To be blunt, I'm not a fan of Pascal's Wager, which I think should be called Pascal's Deception. My position on Pascal's Wager is more or less identical to that of Christopher Hitchens, so I might as well point you to what Hitchens has said about it since he is far more eloquent than I could ever be...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X94YffpUryo

    So, does God admire the person who based his or her faith on what Pascal believed is the safer bet or the person who, in the absence of evidence, couldn't bring himself or herself to believe but remained honest about it? I think the answer is obvious.

    As Richard Dawkins points out in his book The God Delusion, one cannot will oneself into believing. Accepting beliefs as plausible does not make one a believer. To believe in God, one must feel that the belief is true, not just plausible.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngta1OuomzY
    Last edited by The Night Owl; 06-21-2008 at 02:21 PM.
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    Senior Member LogansPapa's Avatar
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    Remember, our side has the bones.;)
    At Coretta Scott King's funeral in early 2006, Ethel Kennedy, the widow of Robert Kennedy, leaned over to him and whispered, "The torch is being passed to you." "A chill went up my spine," Obama told an aide. (Newsweek)
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    Quote Originally Posted by LogansPapa View Post
    Remember, our side has the bones.;)
    If God is for us, who shall stand against us?
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  9. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    We have no evidence of either God or extraterrestrials. All we have is speculation.

    If you're going to embrace Intelligent Design, you've got to embrace the idea that the Designer is not necessarily the highest power but perhaps just a higher power. Even Michaell Behe, one of the more religious proponents of ID, admits that the Designer implicit in the ID hypothesis is not necessarily God. William Dembski too.



    Thanks. To be blunt, I'm not a fan of Pascal's Wager, which I think should be called Pascal's Deception. My position on Pascal's Wager is more or less identical to that of Christopher Hitchens, who attacks it quite eloquently in the following bit of video from a debate...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X94YffpUryo

    So, does God admire the person who based his or her faith on what Pascal believed is the safer bet or the person who, in the absence of evidence, couldn't bring himself or herself to believe but remained honest about it? I think the answer is obvious.

    As Richard Dawkins points out in his book The God Delusion, one cannot will oneself into believing. Accepting beliefs as plausible does not make one a believer. To believe in God, one must feel that the belief is true, not just plausible.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngta1OuomzY

    Pascal himself addressed the issue of people using the wager to opt for God. As he explained the wager does not guarantee salvation. It only gives someone a reason to try to approach God on God's terms. According to scripture, however, people will have no desire to believe unless God calls them to belief. Some people He calls and some He does not. Only He knows the criteria that He uses. From our perspective the choices seem random because no was was given grace because they merited salvation. Their are two calls the general and the specific. The general call is how most people encounter Christianity. Evangelism, witnessing, etc all play a part. God makes the specific call and it is an irrestible called. One will not resist it. I did not resist it. I a little over two years ago I was basically a Taoist and my beliefs were as far from Christianity as they could be. I had not the concept of God that I do now and to me Jesus was just a really moral guy with a lot of good insight. God changed that. I became a believer literally over night. Why did He call me? I have no idea. It wasn't that I did anything to deserve it. To be honest I was not a very good person. He just said "Hey you, come here" and I did. I put down the philosophy books and picked up the Bible. Don't get me wrong I still read philosophy and science and history but I also read a lot of apologetics and theology books. My conversion both focused me and broadened my horizons when it came to gathering information. That is what God asks of me. To learn as much as I can about His word and about the world that He created and about the people in. Even though my faith is as solid as a rock, He has challenged my intellect to discover Him through His presence in the world and when I have doubts to find answers to my questions. So far I have found nothing to make me doubt His existence. It is interesting that two people can review the same information and come to two completely different conclusions but that is the way God created us.

    I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
    C. S. Lewis
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  10. #10  
    An Adversary of Linda #'s
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Night Owl View Post
    Appearances can be deceiving, but for the sake of argument, let us accept your idea that DNA appears to have been designed. If DNA appears to have been designed, then why should we assume that it was designed by God and not by extraterrestrials?



    I don't claim to know that God does not exist. The believers are the ones who make the extravagant claims. I'll remain open to the God hypothesis, but I'm not going to believe it unless someone provides evidence or a theory to support it.

    By the way, your posts are great. I don't agree with most of what you're writing, but I admire the fact that you really think this stuff through.

    Anyway, here is a short video you might find interesting...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9_dHjH34nY

    How many corkscrew bends are you going through before you admit the ever so slight possibility of GODS existence .Everything including your aliens were created by GOD and nothing that exists existed before his creation !
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